On this episode Josh speaks with Dave Woodward, Chief Revenue and Business Development Officer of ClickFunnels. They discuss the concept of click funnels and how they can work for service based businesses.

David Woodward is a proven business expert with a demonstrated history of growing businesses in multiple industries. He is highly skilled in Marketing, Advertising, Sales, Strategic Planning, and Business Development.

David is currently executive of Click Funnels – a SaaS software that lets people design and create sales pages, landing pages, order forms and membership sites. Through this software, people can manage their entire sales and marketing funnel and it also helps anyone who either has anything to buy or sell to do so in the most effective and efficient way.

It is built to be used by entrepreneurs at any level, whether a brand-new business, established company, or a side-hustling stay-at-home Mom.

In today’s episode you’ll learn:

  • What Chief Revenue Officer do?
  • What is a funnel?
  • How does funnel work offline vs online?
  • How much does it cost to set up a funnel?
  • How to hire the right marketing funnel consultant?


Narrator:         Welcome to The Sustainable Business Radio Show podcast where you’ll learn not only how to create a sustainable business but you’ll also learn the secrets of creating extraordinary value within your business and your life. In The Sustainable Business, we focus on what it’s going to take for you to take your successful business and make it economically and personally successful. Your host, Josh Patrick, is going to help us through finding great thought leaders as well as providing insights he’s learned through his 40 years of owning, running, planning and thinking about what it takes to make a successful business sustainable.

Josh:                 Hey, how are you today? This is Josh Patrick. You’re at The Sustainable Business podcast.

Today, my guest is Dave Woodward. Dave is the Chief Revenue Officer at ClickFunnels. If you haven’t heard of ClickFunnels, I don’t know what rock you’ve been living under if you’re on the online world. It is taking the world by storm when it comes to building funnels, putting landing pages, squeeze pages. They’ve got all sorts of stuff they’ve been doing.

To be completely honest with you, I’m a customer of ClickFunnels. I’ve been a long-time customer at ClickFunnels. Well, at least a long time for me is like three or four years. I love the product. What we’re going to talk with Dave about today is why you need a funnel if you have a brick and mortar service business. And the second is what the heck is a Chief Revenue Officer? Let’s bring Dave on.

Hey, Dave. How are you today?

Dave:                I’m doing great. Thanks so much for having me. I’m super excited. If you’ve been on ClickFunnels for three to four years, you’ve been here from the beginning then. We just celebrated our fourth year, September 23rd, last couple of weeks, so.

Josh:                 I think I went to Russell’s first Funnel Hacker’s Conference that he had and I had just become a ClickFunnels user. The reason I became a ClickFunnels user was I was trying to use Lead Pages and I couldn’t make it work right.

Dave:                We hear that a lot [laughs].

Josh:                 You know, it’s a great program. People really like it, who are good at it. By the way, I became an early HubSpot user because I use ClickFunnels with HubSpot.

Dave:                Yeah.

Josh:                 And I became an early Hubspot user actually from two ways. One is, I had a designer who did a WordPress site for us, would not teach us how to use it so I couldn’t put any blogpost up.

Dave:                Handcuffed [laughs].

Josh:                 Yeah, handcuffed.

And the second reason was, I happened to have read a book that Brian wrote with David Meerman Scott called Marketing Secrets of the Grateful Dead. I’ve seen the Grateful Dead [inaudible 00:02:32].

Dave:                I know you’re a big Grateful Dead [inaudible 00:02:32], yeah.

Josh:                 You’ve read the book? So, at any rate, enough of me and my wandering on about this. I’m taking up all our time. What is a Chief Revenue Officer?

Dave:                You know, it’s kind of funny because, first of all, on ClickFunnels, we really don’t have many titles. We’re not real big on titles. I’ve worked with a lot of different PR people and things and like, “Well, we have to have a title when you’re talking to people.” And I’m like, “You know what, I’m just a partner in ClickFunnels and our whole thing is just to make it work and have it successful.”

So, bottom line, you take a look at an organizational chart. I have two different roles or two different hats I wear. One is our business development. I run all of our business development. So, if you had to have a title for that it’d be VP of Business Development, Chief Business Development Officer or whatever you want on that side.

Your question though, as far as Chief Revenue Officer, if you take a look at any large corporation, the Chief Revenue Officer is basically the person who’s in charge of the entire sales department. And that’s my primary focus, is to bring in topline revenue to the company. And so, that revenue comes from – we just have hired a person basically who’s going to be running our entire speaking platform so we’ll have people on, technically, a lot of other events speaking on behalf of ClickFunnels so we can let Russell do what he does best instead of having to travel. And so, that’s one of the things I’m involved in. That’s where we will generate quite a bit of revenue over the next year or so, just at speaking at live events.

The other thing is, what you were referencing earlier, and that is wanting to have phone support at ClickFunnels. Part of that is we are now adding on a new migration opportunity here, in the next– I just hired on another person who’s in charge of our sales department there for a lot of our outbound reach as well as dealing with a lot of our current customers like yourself, Josh, making sure they have better service as we roll out additional products and services to provide value to them.

Chief Revenue Office is basically the person in charge of generating the topline revenue.

Josh:                 I guess, my thought about what a Chief Revenue Officer is– and your definition by way is a little bit different than what mine is. As a Chief Revenue Officer, yes, he’s responsible for all the revenue. But would it also make sense that they would also be responsible for marketing and sales? And a lot of companies, don’t do marketing. They just do sales. Or, a lot of companies just do marketing and don’t do sales and don’t do marketing but that’s a different– especially smaller companies. But, it seems to me that that the Chief Revenue Officer would probably be wearing both the marketing and sales hat and make sure the two groups play nice with each other.

Dave:                You know what, so Russell’s our CEO and our CMO – our Chief Marketing Officer. He and I, we spend a lot of time together. We work very close, hand in hand, with marketing and sales. We actually market our way to $100 million. More so, than really sell on our way there. It was much more – Russell was our primary salesperson and marketer. And we’re just adding others to that.

Josh:                 Well, you definitely had pull marketing, not push marketing. That’s for sure.

Dave:                [laughs] We are very big in the pull marketing area, yes.

Josh:                 Yes. And by the way, when you say pull marketing, what it means is somebody works very hard to make you aware of who they are. And by making you aware of who they are, you’re going to contact the company. I would say that Russell does that about as well as anybody I have ever seen in my life. The guy – he just doesn’t give up.

Dave:                Thank you.

You’re right, he doesn’t. He’s been a lifelong friend for me. It’s been– we’ve had a lot of fun together over the years.

Josh:                 I bet some of that has to do with his background of wrestling.

Dave:                He is highly competitive, yes. And so, his wrestling background, it plays out in our office at a very frequent basis.

Josh:                 Okay, so let’s go and talk about what– I bet you’re more interested in talking about than Chief Revenue Officer and that kind of stuff. But–

Dave:                You know, titles really don’t mean much.

Josh:                 Right. I get that. When people say, “What’s your title?” I usually say, “Head Schlep”.

Dave:                [laughs].

Josh:                 So.

Dave:                Just, Mr. Get It Done. That’s all I care about.

Josh:                 You know, for years and years and years and years, by the way, I would rebel against titles. And about 12 or 13 years ago, I finally figured out, other people in the world really care about their title so I have to stop making fun of it.

Dave:                [laughs] You can make fun of mine all day.

Josh:                 Okay, good.

Dave:                I’m fine with that.

Josh:                 Okay. Let’s talk about I’m a dentist, or I’m a contractor, I’m a lawyer and I have people coming into my office. They’re not going to do an online product with me. When I think about funnels– first of all, would you explain what a funnel is? Because I’m going to bet there’s a lot of people listening and says, “I’ve heard the term. I think I know what it is but what is a funnel?”

Dave:                First of all, online and offline work exactly the same way. It’s probably actually easier to see more from a offline funnel and I’ll show you exactly what I mean online. You’re talking about push marketing. McDonald’s has done a phenomenal job in making sure their brand is out there. You see these golden arches everywhere. And their whole job is to push you into the drive-thru. And as soon as you get into the drive-thru and you order a hamburger or a Big Mac, they make about ¢14 profit on that. Where they make the real money is in the funnel that takes place in the very next thing that gets asked. That is, “Would you like fries and a Coke with that?” That fries and a Coke is an up sale and that’s part of what a funnel is where it now takes the person – so you acquire the customer on the front end. And then, you offer them whatever the next logical sequence is for them. And that then is the very next thing. So, “You want fries and a Coke?” “Yes.” “Well, do you want to big size that?” It’s another offer.

And so, the whole idea behind a sales funnel is bringing people in. We refer to it as far as a funnel because a lot of people come in at the top and they kind of get smaller and smaller as it goes down. The idea with the drive-thru at McDonald’s is they make ¢14 on the burger but they may make $2 or $1.50 actually on the fries and a Coke. That’s where the real profit is. That’s, again, the offline world.

Online, you see the same thing if you go to Amazon. You buy something. The very next thing you’ll see at the bottom is people who bought this also bought this. And it’s another opportunity to get someone else to do that.

The funnel really is – it’s a logical sequence of helping the buyer or the consumer get what is that they truly want. And so, it becomes a very large win-win for the consumer and also for the provider of the services.

Josh:                 Let’s talk about a dentist, just for fun. What would a funnel look like for a dentist?

Dave:                Again, dentist, that’s an easy one because they’ve been doing this for a very, very long time. I think they’re used to providing something at first to get someone in the chair. That’s all that matters, is they have not find some self-liquidating offer. Something that’s cheap enough where a person says, “You know what, yeah, I’ll do that.” And it’s their way of separating that one dentist from the other 15 dentists with the 3-mile radius of that person’s house.

And so, they offer them – these days, what we’re seeing is free teeth cleaning and whitening. And so, whitening has become a thing. I always wanted to have whiter teeth, and so, you can actually go in and get the free whitening if you just come to this dentist versus the other one who’s only offering a free cleaning. And so, that’s one of the things that that person could then offer.

The whole idea here is really to make sure we take a look at a sales funnel. Again, that’s an offline funnel. That same funnel works extremely well online.

Josh:                 How would that funnel work online?

Dave:                One of the great things these days, for a lot of local businesses, local business are probably the easiest ones to work with inside of an online sales funnel because of Facebook. And Facebook’s local targeting is so easy you really can hone in specifically on exactly who you want as your clients.

Josh:                 So what you’re saying is that the dentist should be advertising locally on Facebook and then driving in to something that you guys would have which is a story about that dentist which makes the potential patient aware of the dentist and have a good feeling?

Dave:                Absolutely correct, Josh. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Josh:                 Okay. Here’s my question about this, is that, in my opinion – and it just might be my opinion, the best way to do that is that when someone clicks on a Facebook ad and they end up over on ClickFunnels there’s some sort of an introduction to who you are. You could do that introduction through writing copy, or you could do that introduction through a video. Now, in my opinion, if you’re not doing your introduction through a video, we call you an idiot.

Dave:                [laughs] You can call them whatever you want [laughs].

Josh:                 Would you agree with that or would you– I mean, you might not call them an idiot. I’m rude. I’m old so I get to be rude.

Dave:                You know, Josh, I think– honestly, it depends. And what it depends on is exactly what the person’s going to. We’ve seen– for example, some of the things we’ve been selling online recently, a physical product. It’s actually easier for– like our free plus shipping book. We’ve done that with a video but it’s just a very quick video play. And it’s not as much about the book.

What we’ve actually seen works best is just a still image, at first. And then, on the up sells and the down sells, it’s typically where we always have video. And a lot of the problem with have with some people is they’re not really accustomed to talking on video and they ramble too much. And if you can’t be direct enough– that’s why sales copy — written sales copy is– it’s almost easier to do a video, transcribe it, and then re-edit and re-shoot the video because on video you’ve got to be super quick, to the point, because the people won’t care about you at all. All they care about is them and their teeth.

So if the dentist is going on and on about “Gosh, you know what, I went to Harvard. And then, from Harvard, I graduated and went to dental school at USC.“ They just don’t care about that stuff. All they care about is, “I just want my teeth fixed.” And so, if the dentist or whoever that business owner is, if they can very direct to focus specifically on what’s in it for the person who just landed on that page, then the video works extremely well.

Josh:                 Just out of curiosity, what do you think is a reasonable cost of marketing for a brick‑‑mortar‑business?

Dave:                There’s two different metrics I pay attention to whenever we’re looking at a funnel. The first one is, whatever your cost is to acquire a customer. And then, what is your average cart value? So what we look at, especially for a dentist or a brick-and-mortar, the real thing I look at is, you’re not making profit on what I’m selling online. I want them in my store. Take, for example, if you were to offer a free cleaning or maybe you want to do a reduced–

One thing, Josh, I can tell you. In all of our years in marketing, the most difficult thing to do is to get that first dollar. Once you get that first dollar online, from there on, it’s a thousand times easier. And it’s also why there’s a huge difference between a person who’s an opt-in, who basically puts their email in versus a person who’s a customer and actually pays for something.

And I can tell you, from our perspective, I’m more interested in customers than I am in opt-ins because I know a customer is going to pay. They’ve taken their credit card out and said, “I’m willing to trust you with my money. I’m willing to make an exchange here of real value. And because of that, when I get into your store, I’m now going to be much more inclined to spend more.” That’s why you’ll see most of our books are all free plus shipping offers or something like that. We want to get that first dollar.

Even if I was a dentist, I would still charge something. It could be very nominal – it’s $5, $10, $25. And then, what I would look at is, if I can get that cost to equal the same cost of paying for the ads then it’s a win-win because I want them in the chair. Because once they’re in the chair, there’s a ton of up sells, as everyone knows who goes to the dentist.

Josh:                 Right. What if I’m a roofing contractor? You don’t really get an upsell is a roofing contractor. You buy a roof, it is $20,000, or $30,000 or $40,000 and you’re not going to buy another one for 20 years, where would a funnel work for them?

Dave:                I love those types of services that you only buy, as you mentioned, every 1, 10, 20, or 30 years. We actually have a client who is one of our Two Comma Club Award winners meaning he’s made over a million dollars inside of a sales funnel and he’s a painter. He’s a residential painter. What he really paints is kitchens. That’s his specialty. He’s a residential kitchen painter and–

Josh:                 Now, you want about tight niches. There’s a tight niche.

Dave:                Oh, yeah. Yeah.

But, I mean, you’ve got all these people who are doing these remodels and everything else, and his specialty is coming in and saying, “Listen, you don’t have to remodel.” He says, “I can tell you from my painting and everything else, I can actually–“

And, again, sometimes there’s, obviously, the upsell is some additional remodel on the back end for him. But what he’s really specialized in is antique painting. He’s specialized in taking all the stain off. And so, for him, what it is–

And, again, going back to your roofing example. For any major purchase where a person doesn’t do it all the time, there’s a lot of fear for the consumer because they’re like, “I just don’t want to get screwed. I don’t know what I don’t know.” And so, for those people, some of the most important things are going to be reports, or “Seven things to asking any contractor”, or “Seven things to be aware of before you have someone take your roof off your house”, or whatever that might be. And the whole idea there is to provide value to people. And this is, again, where your videos come in.

The hard part for, again, from a roofing standpoint is, “Man, I’m not going to do this thing for 20 years. The last thing I want is a leak. I don’t want to have it look bad. It’s going to destroy the rest of my house.” And so, you’ve got a ton of concern about having this roof put on. And, at the same time, “I want to make sure it looks good. Do I need to have architectural shingles? Am I going for straight shingles? Do I need to have?” And so, there’s a ton of questions and a ton of costs.

And so, for that case, the best thing is to provide a report or questions that they can ask. It’s got to be super simple and easy for the consumer to consujme. But most importantly, provide value to them, where they go, “Okay. Now, I feel like I’m now educated enough. I can make this decision.” And what you’re going to find is you’re going to slant that report directly towards you and your business so. That works extremely well.

Josh:                 The next think I want to ask you about is, private business owners are generally cost‑averse when it comes to hiring professional advice. And, in my experience, using something like Facebook is not simple. I’ve been on the ad manager a lot. I tried to make the ad manager work and I have no idea what I’m doing when I do it. I’m going to assume that you think it’s a good idea – and if I’m wrong, please tell me. I love being corrected. Is that, getting somebody who understands marketing – using funnels, is probably pretty important for success, especially when you first start.

Dave:                Oh, I totally agree with you. I couldn’t agree more with you. I think it’s one of most important things.

Josh:                 Okay, so here’s my real question for you. I have hired several Facebook consultants over the period of the last few years. None of them have come close to doing what they said that was going to happen. How in the heck do you find a consultant?

They all have a great conversation. They know the right things to say but I’m not convinced they know the right things to do. So, how do you find that consultant that knows the right things to do?

Dave:                I can tell you, for myself personally, this goes back to old school things. And I’m always looking for a referral from someone who’s already had success with them or with someone.

Hopefully, in this next week or two, we’re going to be rolling out a new product. We’re going to call it the Funnel Rolodex. Its whole focus is to provide kind of like a Fiverr or an Upwork type of thing that is just funnel related, so those things that would be unique to a funnel. And then, there’s going to be a ton of peer reviews and things that are in there, specifically for that.

Josh:                 Are you going to be putting in industry specialties? Because here’s what I found, is that a lot of these Facebook marketers are very effective with a particular industry.

Dave:                Sure.

Josh:                 And if you’re outside that industry, they really don’t know what they’re doing.

Dave:                I totally agree with you on that.

And Facebook is so large right now that you–

There was a time where you could just get a Facebook ad manager. It’s like anything else. You can go to the doctor, or you can go to a plastic surgeon, or an orthodontist. I mean, there’s specialties inside of every profession for that one reason. And I would say the exact same thing you’ll see happen as far as Facebook is I would want to make sure that person has worked with – if you’re a roofer, that they’ve worked with other roofers and they know how to speak the speak of roofing. If they’re a dentist, or they’ve worked with chiropractors, or whatever that local business might be, I would prefer that they’ve worked in that specific niche versus trying to find out something new.

Josh:                 We we have time for one more question and one more short little conversation in the podcast but I’d like to continue on with Facebook if you have a little bit of time afterwards, Dave.

Dave:                Sure.

Josh:                 What should you expect to pay for somebody who’s going to help you with a funnel campaign?

Dave:                Oh, my gosh, that’s a loaded question, Josh.

Josh:                 I know it’s a loaded question but I will promise you that everybody listening to this podcast who is thinking about doing what we’ve been talking about, they’re going to ask the question, “Okay. What should it cost?”

Dave:                The reason there’s a range is because there’s so many pieces to a funnel. One is, who’s writing the copy? Are you expecting them to write the copy or are you writing the copy? Who’s doing the videos? Are you doing the videos or is someone else doing the videos? Is there a product that needs to be filled on? Are you writing that product?

Assuming that all that’s done and it’s just the funnel build itself– if it’s just the funnel build, we’re going to keep this really a simple funnel where it’s an opt-in page with an order form and one OTO, one – basically an up sale, a one-time offer. I think you can get something like that built for about $1000 to $1500.

Josh:                 Okay, what if he needs somebody to write the copy or do the videos, what’s the cost go to at that point?

Dave:                All these things are based on length. Direct response marketing, as far as copy– I mean, we’ve spend $15,000 to $20,000 on a sales letter. For a local business owner, I would think you could probably get the copy written for about $1000 to $2000.

Josh:                 Okay. So, basically, to build your funnel, you’re saying somewhere between a thousand–

Dave:                $2500 to 3000, I think, would be safe.

Josh:                 Yeah, $1000 to $3000, somewhere in there. Depending on whether you’re going to do copy or you’re not going to do copy and things of that nature.

Now, I know that sounds like a lot, folks. Here’s what I want you to think about. If you sell $30,000, $40,000 or $50,000 worth of product, your cost for doing that is less than 5%. And in my world, if your marketing cost is 10% or less – with most businesses, you are in the right range. So, realize, you have to promote your business to become found.

Now, and we call this stage 2 to stage 3 with Cracking the Cashflow Code. You’re not trying to get your first sale. You’ve already done that. You’re now at the point where you’re trying to smooth out your sales process. And this is where this sort of stuff is done well.

I’m going to do an ad for your group, is that Russell has a program. It’s a live program which you can talk about, and I would recommend that you go because you’ll learn a lot.

But, Dave, we’re out of time, unfortunately. How do people find ClickFunnels? How do they find you? How do they get more information? What would you like them to do now?

Dave:                The easiest thing is just go to ClickFunnels.com, when you land there, you’re going to see a survey on the right-hand side. It’s going to ask you which industry or niche that you’re in. Just answer those questions. There are two or three questions. And you actually will be given three different share funnels that are already pre-built for you based on the industry or niche that you’re in.

Josh:                 Cool.

I also have an offer for you, too. I actually have written a book. The book came out in January and I’m still telling people, “It’s a great book, you should read it.”

It’s a novel. It’s about a dysfunctional business family who takes their business that is absolutely not economically sustainable. And during the course of the book, you find out what they have to go through to make the business economically and personally sustainable. It’s called Sustainable: A Fable About Creating a Personally and Economically Sustainable Business.

You can buy the book at Amazon. But that’ll be a bad idea – not because I don’t like Amazon. I love Amazon. But if you go to my website, www.sustainablethebook.com, you not only get to buy the book, but you get a free 20-minute strategy session with me where I will guarantee you will get at least one piece of take home information you can implement in your business.

This is Josh Patrick. We’re with Dave Woodward. You’re at the Sustainable Business. Thanks a lot for stopping by. I hope to see you back here really soon.

Narrator:         You’ve been listening to The Sustainable Business podcast where we ask the question, “What would it take for your business to still be around a hundred years from now?” If you like what you’ve heard and want more information, please contact Josh Patrick at 802-846-1264 ext 2, or visit us on our website at www.askjoshpatrick.com, or you can send Josh an email at jpatrick@askjoshpatrick.com.

Thanks for listening. We hope to see you at The Sustainable Business in the near future.

Topics: service business, click funnel, marketing funnel, sales funnel, sustainable business podcast, Sustainable Business, clickfunnel, facebook marketing, funnel, dave woodward

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